Welcome back, friends! Today’s episode isn’t the glorious season opener we thought we’d have. And that’s actually ok.
Tuning into your gut can tell you a lot, even when the answer is hard to hear. Listen in for all the details on Katel’s sabbatical, Sara’s new company, and what happens next.
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Sara Wachter-Boettcher (00:00): Hey everyone. I’m Sara.
KL (00:01): And I’m Katel.
SWB (00:03): And this is Strong Feelings, the podcast for feminists at work.
(music fades in and plays for 14 seconds)
SWB (00:19): We’re back, baby. It’s been a couple months since we’ve put out a show. Katel, you had a sabbatical.
KL (00:26): I did.
SWB (00:26): Fill us in!
KL (00:26): It was very magical [SWB laughs]. I disconnected completely from work and most of my professional obligations and it was really wonderful. I know I talked about dealing with a lot of burnout last year, so I, you know, I absolutely needed some time off to recuperate and reset. And I got to tell you, it took me a good week to really settle into it. I kept thinking like, “wait, I should be doing something.”
SWB (00:55): Yes, you should be doing something, which is called nothing.
KL (00:59): Lotta nothing. Yeah. So I did some stuff like I just traveled to see if you friends, but I had a bunch of time to do nothing, which was just like totally divine. And honestly, one of my favorite parts of the sabbatical was just having time for solitude because it allowed me to have some space from everything to think. And I kind of had some big realizations in that space.
SWB (01:22): Yeah. So I guess that’s actually what today’s show is about.
KL (01:26): Yeah.
SWB (01:26): So, big realization.
KL (01:28): Yeah. So one of those big realizations is that I need to step away from the podcast.
SWB (01:33): Yeah.
KL (01:33): Yeah.
SWB (01:35): I already cried about it. So I won’t cry again.
KL (01:37): We both have. But yeah, I know, it was not an easy decision to settle on and I thought about it a lot. I have loved doing this for the last two years and I’ve learned so much. I feel like I pushed myself far outside of my comfort zone and most of the time it felt really good. And sometimes it felt really weird and awkward. But I also felt like I’ve just been doing too much and kind of treading water and I feel like I wasn’t really able to give 100% to anything last year. Like I was giving just enough effort to do a lot of different things and it really wore me down. And because I felt like I was treading water, I couldn’t really feel successful, nor could I find the space and time to explore if any or all of it was really right for me. And it was really hard to sort through what the right decisions were. So when I finally had some time, I realized I needed to make some decisions on where to focus.
SWB (02:28): Yeah, I mean I definitely relate to that feeling of treading water and doing a lot and struggling to give 100%. But it was still kind of hard for me to hear at first. You know, we had all these things in motion, we had all these plans for 2020 that we wanted to do. But I think the truth is we were just doing too much, even though so many of the things we did together last year were really wonderful. It was a lot. And so taking a big step back is hard, but I know that it’s also right.
KL (02:54): Yeah, it is hard. But I think you’re right. It’s also right.
SWB (02:58): Okay. So you are wondering what exactly this means for Strong Feelings? Well, it definitely means this is the last episode for a while, but I’m not saying forever because I do want to put out some more stuff. But we won’t be launching a new season this spring. And future episodes might just be me and a guest, or maybe Katel will pop in for something here and there. And also, maybe not—because what we’re saying right now is really just like, “no commitments and no pressure and no timelines and no to do lists.” So if and when we have something for you, we will share it because we love you.
KL (03:32): Yeah, I mean I’m here for that. I’m already a huge fan.
SWB (03:36): Strong Feelings. The official occasional-ish podcast for feminists at work.
KL (03:40): Yeah. ™. I love it.
SWB (03:43): Quitting stuff is really hard.
KL (03:44): Yeah.
SWB (03:45): I feel like we’re not alone in that. Like I’ve definitely struggled to quit things. And I’m wondering, what helped you get to a place where you could see what you needed to do?
KL (03:55): I mean, it’s taken me a long time to get to a place where I don’t constantly second-guess a decision like this to leave or quit something. I might put this into the camp of like trusting my gut, but I think as I’ve settled into my, you know, sort of sensitive nature, I realized that when I’m trying to sort through a decision, I can actually feel it in my body and my mind. And I think about how I feel when I’m doing a certain thing, and if it’s really out of balance with where I want to be, I really try to tune into that.
SWB (04:24): Yeah, I know that feeling like it’s the same feeling as when somebody asks you to do something and you have this sense of dread in the pit of your stomach before you’ve even said yes to it. But then sometimes you say yes anyway. Yeah. [KL laughs] And really like that pit of dread is trying to tell you, “maybe you should be saying no to this,” but that’s a hard lesson to learn. And I still find that hard. I find it hard to leave things. I’m definitely someone who’s way more likely to try to make something work. Sometimes at really great cost to myself. And I think one of the things I’ve realized in the past year or two, it’s like this sense of responsibility I carry around, that I should somehow, always, no matter what, keep everything afloat. That’s really deeply rooted in me and sort of in how I grew up. And it is a skill that has benefited me in certain ways. Right? Like it’s given me a lot of grit, but it doesn’t always serve me.
KL (05:18): Yeah, that’s, that’s really rough. I get that.
SWB (05:21): It’s like it’s a skill that can be helpful, but treating it like it is always the answer turns out doesn’t work great.
KL (05:28): Yeah.
SWB (05:28): So how do you get from kind of tuning into that feeling to actually making a decision and then coming to terms with that decision? Because I feel like sometimes I do, I tune into the feeling and then you know, it’s an uncomfortable feeling and I kind of revert back to what I’m best at—I revert back to the thing that I know how to do the most—which is, “push forward anyway.” And you know, if I’m being honest, I think that’s a lot of what I was doing over the past few months, because I love so much about this project and about our partnership. But you know, I’ve been worn thin and momentum on other stuff that I also care really deeply about.
KL (06:01): Yeah. Like that’s not great. You know, I don’t want either of us to be in that worn thin space. And I think in terms of getting from tuning into feelings to making a decision, it’s certainly not easy. But I kind of spent time thinking about what you just said, like thinking about what it could look like for me, for both of us, to be in spaces of abundance and flow and forward momentum. And I think when I envisioned that, at least for me it meant stepping back from the podcast, I realized I had to do something with that.
SWB (06:31): Yeah. And I’m really glad that you did— that you just said it, you know. And of course it’s kind of funny, like once you told me that that’s what you needed to do, I felt a sense of loss and sadness, but I also kind of felt renewed in a way because I realized that there was all this other stuff I’m really excited about that I haven’t had enough time to fully throw myself into or take ownership of, and now I feel like I can do that.
KL (06:53): Uh, yeah, you already have so much stuff in the works and I’m really excited about all that.
SWB (06:58): Yeah. You know, I finished my coach training program this month, which is great and I’ve been working with a whole bunch of leadership coaching clients as I’ve been finishing the program and I’ve just—I’ve been really loving expanding those skills and operating in a different kind of space and like a different kind of vibe than I’m used to as a consultant. And I really want to have more space to keep doing that. And something I’ve realized as I’ve started coaching clients through things like career transitions or setting better work boundaries, is that what I really want is I want to bring together all of the stuff that we do on the show and at our Collective Strength events—which by the way, we’re going to keep doing those—I want to bring all of that stuff together with the stuff that I’ve done historically, consulting in tech and design and helping teams build more inclusive practices and to actually launch a business that’s unified around those things, versus always feeling like I’m doing this and that.
KL (07:53): I love that. I think it makes so much sense.
SWB (07:55): So this week I launched—“I launched,” I feel silly talking about launching it—but I also feel like I’ve—.
KL (08:01): It’s great. You gotta.
SWB (08:03): Yeah, I guess I’ve always felt a little silly, like, “I’m not really launching a thing, I’m just doing some stuff.” But no, I launched a company called Active Voice that is 100-percent focused on leadership and learning experiences for people in tech and design. And it’s things like trainings and workshops and facilitation services alongside the one -on-one coaching. And it’s not 100-percent different than the stuff I’ve already been doing, but it’s like, owning that that is a defined thing, and a real thing, and an offering that stands alone.
KL (08:32): Yeah, totally. And I love this because it’s like all your strengths are taking the shape of a one mega Voltron.
SWB (08:38): Oh man, I really hope so. I would love for everyone to check it out. It’s an activevoicehq.com. Hit me up if you want to talk about coaching or workshops at your company or anything like that. But more than just like, make this an infomercial for my business, what I really want to say here is that I’m really excited about this stuff! And for a long time I think I was struggling to commit 100 percent to building this out and owning it and talking about it while there was all this other stuff going on. So many different balls in the air. And now that I’ve spent a little bit of time really laser-focused on what I want that to look like, how I want to show up professionally and sort of this next iteration of my career, I feel really good about it. And I can tell it’s so clearly informed by all the work that we’ve been doing over the past couple of years. It’s not like I’m just tossing that aside. It’s like building upon it, just in new ways. This evolution of my career just would not exist without having done the podcast with you and learn from the guests that we’ve had on and really given myself space to explore my values and develop new perspectives, and I’m just thankful for that.
KL (09:44): I know, I love that, and I feel the same way. Just because our paths are going to look different, it doesn’t cancel out all the work we did and everything we learned, that I learned. I mean, I learned so much.
SWB (09:57): Yeah. So, okay. What are you excited about right now?
KL (10:00): So where I wound up after all that tuning in and thinking was deciding that I want to focus on A Book Apart and what its next evolution is, which is currently unfolding and kind of has been. I realized something else in that right around the fall last year, all these things I’d set into motion at ABA like 18 months before were starting to gel and come into being. You know, our team has grown in size and stability and our author pipeline is more diverse than ever, and all these things that take time are happening.
SWB (10:32): Yeah. Which I have to say has been really exciting to see. Like the books coming out now are about stuff that really matters from so many voices that I had never heard from before. And I know that you put a lot of work into making that happen and I want to be celebrating it.
KL (10:47): Yeah, totally. And you know, I didn’t really stop to notice it at all in the last year. And not just that, like around the end of 2018, almost a year ago, I was feeling really stuck. I was feeling like I’d spent so much time laying all this groundwork and trying to develop the business and nurturing it and I was feeling kind of impatient about not seeing things come to fruition. And then I spent all this time last year pouring myself into all these other projects and I didn’t see that everything was really percolating at ABA.
SWB (11:18): Gosh, yeah. I mean I get that. Like you do all this work and you’re thinking, “is this adding up to anything?”
KL (11:23): Yeah.
SWB (11:25): And it’s so easy to sort of assume the worst. It’s something I definitely have heard a lot of times, even just in the past three months as I’ve been working with coaching clients, is that it’s so common to not acknowledge your own progress, and to write off the stuff that you’re doing as small or insignificant, or to not see that it actually is adding up to something, and to just move onto the next thing and to kind of be like, I don’t know, making all of your work small.
KL (11:52): Right? I mean, so when all that came into focus for me, I started to feel re-energized and reinvested in a new way and I’m really excited about keeping that momentum going. Did you know we are coming up on our 10th anniversary in May?
SWB (12:08): Whoa. I did not realize that.
KL (12:11): Yeah. Like 10 years for our little publishing house! And I want to start telling more of the story of how we got here. So I’m really excited for that to take shape.
SWB (12:19): Okay. You know how we always tell first-time authors that they should get a book cake?
KL (12:23): Yes.
SWB (12:23): You know, for all of you who are not familiar with a book cake, if you ever write a book, my recommendation is get a book cake. It’s just, it’s like a cake decorated as your book. It’s amazing.
KL (12:31): Yeah.
SWB (12:31): So I think you need like a mega book cake. How many books do you have out now?
KL (12:36): Okay, we have 41 books.
SWB (12:38): Okay, so you need a 41-layer cake, or like 41 tiers—like the most monstrous wedding cake you can imagine. But each of them is a distinct book.
KL (12:47): I love it. It’s going to be so many cake batter colors. I’m going to go order that right now.
SWB (12:52): You’re going to feel sick after you have one tiny slice of it.
KL (12:55): It’s gonna be gross.
SWB (12:55): Yeah. Okay. So after your big book cake, what else are you excited about?
KL (12:59): So I am also really excited about focusing on coach training. We talked about it a bit in the fall, but I did not continue the program you just finished. And I kind of had to reset my plan and my expectations with that last year. So I just started a program I’m really stoked about and I’m just very excited about figuring out how all of this is going to weave into my other work.
SWB (13:23): Totally. And I think that’s one of the things that maybe we’re both learning or reminding each other of, which is like, you don’t have to know yet how it’s going to work or what that’s going to look like. It’s just really wonderful to feel like it’s okay to explore without pressure or expectation.
KL (13:36): Totally does. It feels so much more like freeing?
SWB (13:40): So we talked about this a bunch offline, but I just want to mention here on the air that a huge piece of this has also been talking about what this means for our friendship and like what does our friendship look like now?
KL (13:51): Mmmhmm.
SWB (13:51): We’ve been through a lot together, including—for all of you who’ve listened from the start, we started out with a third cohost, Jenn Lukas, and it was really hard when she decided to leave the show. And you know, we’ve done so much together since then, and I got really used to seeing your face and working through stuff. And now it’s like, what does our friendship look like when it’s just a friendship? When we’re not also always opening up 14 different Google doc tabs? You know?
KL (14:20): I mean, I don’t know. I still like to make to do lists for non-work things, so I apologize in advance.
SWB (14:25): Oh totally. I had drinks with a friend last night and I felt like we needed a bullet list agenda because we had a lot of important stuff to share, like big grownup topics. And I wanted to make sure that we got to all of them, because they were all important.
KL (14:36): Yeah, see?
SWB (14:39): So I was thinking the other day about how much I value our friendship, and how just excited I am to have more time for doing friend stuff again. And it reminded me of one of my favorite conversations we had last year with Mary Pipher, from April of 2019.
Mary Pipher (14:53): My number one piece of advice to women your age, Sarah and Katel, is to have a really good strong group of female friends. To me that is an emotional and mental health insurance policy. And I’m very lucky. I have some of the same friends I had in 1972. So my friendships are very deep. And I’ve been going camping with the same group of women since the mid-eighties. And we’ve gone through everything together. We’ve gone through having babies together. We’ve gone through complaining about our husbands together. We’ve gone through dealing with the school system together and seeing our children graduate. We’ve gone through menopause together, during which time we were pretty cranky with each other [SWB laughs]. And now we’ve gone through seeing, in some cases, the death of parents and the death of friends and siblings. So it’s a beautiful tight group and women friends are people that support us and people that validate us, and will listen to us and nurture us. Older women tend to do a lot of nurturing, and so it’s just wonderful to have women friends who will nurture us.
SWB (16:00): Okay. This really stopped me in my tracks. I remember so well. I had to record that interview from a hotel room closet.
KL (16:05): God, I forgot.
SWB (16:07): Yeah. And it…some things didn’t go as planned on that particular trip. But I was sitting on the floor in a closet with all of the pillows and blankets from the room in there, and listening intently to everything that Mary was saying with tears in my eyes because…I don’t know, I want that to be us.
KL (16:22): Yeah.
SWB (16:22): I want to call you when I’m going through menopause. I mean, who else would I call?
KL (16:26): Exactly.
SWB (16:27): Yeah, so later on in that episode, Mary said one other thing that just rings in my ears all the time. She said, “friendshipping is a verb. You only have friends if you actually act in a way that keeps those friends close.” And I want to keep friendshipping you.
KL (16:42): Oh, me too. Oh my God. We talked to so many incredible people who have really impacted me. You know. I think as I’m moving forward with all the ABA stuff, I cannot stop thinking about something Jennifer Armbrust said.
SWB (16:56): Ooh, that’s the feminist business school person.
KL (16:58): Yeah.
SWB (16:59): She was so awesome.
Jennifer Armbrust (17:00): I really tried to paint a picture of a business as an ecosystem, and a business within an ecosystem, the ecosystem of our world. And then from there we move into, there’s a lot of parts about activities to support creative visioning and really calling in that business that’s your own, that embodies your purpose, and allows you to be the most effective in the world. And I work also with my clients on their relationship with power, their relationship with money, and their relationship with the meritocracy, with the glorification of overwork. I really try to help my students unlearn that, which I think is really feminine. It’s really masculine to get your ego from how much you’re sacrificing, how hard you’re working. It’s really feminine to be more receptive, to let things flow, to let things be easy and to not glorify overworking.
KL (17:52): I loved when Jennifer talked about thinking of your business as an ecosystem, because for me it brought into focus the idea of thinking about all the pieces from micro to macro, like not just within my company but how our business exists and operates within the larger ecosystems and you know, underscore on systems. Like I don’t want to just run a business that goes along with the status quo, and fuck, we have work to do there, always. But it’s something at the forefront of my mind all the time. And I think there are small but very strong things taking root. Like I think our team is really good at not perpetuating a culture of overwork. And you know, something like setting boundaries and feeling not just okay but empowered to stick to those boundaries is in my eyes a little act of resistance.
SWB (18:38): Mmmm. I like that a lot.
KL (18:39): Yeah, and that goes for how and when people work too. Like I want ABA to be a place where parents feel like they can create a workday that works for them—that their job they do for ABA isn’t an additional pressure to think about as they’re juggling family and everything else. And I think, too, looking at what we published last year, even our books are talking about those systems, like our authors are showing us how racism and power distance and capitalism are not separate from design. And I think that has been slow but a fucking critical shift.
SWB (19:10): Mmm. Yes! You know, you and me have talked about this a little bit, but back in 2016—which I’m like wow, that was four years ago—we published Design for Real Life with A Book Apart. So me and my coauthor Eric Meyer. And I will say at the time it felt like a big departure. Like we weren’t sure if A Book Apart would even want to publish it, or if it would feel too removed from design and tech resources—you know, like too adjacent.
KL (19:34): Yeah.
SWB (19:34): It’s like we’re not teaching people CSS, you know. Which is of course what Eric Meyer was known for, and what A Book Apart has done some of. And like, we are not doing that at all. And I was like, “how does this even fit?” And what I’m seeing now over the past four years, where there’s been a lot of things shifting in society and in our industry and then in A Book Apart where now it’s like, what you’re doing and the authors that you are choosing to work with are doing, is sort of shifting the whole conversation so that topics like power and race and gender and all of that are not just over here in this other category, but they’re infused within everything that you’re doing because, in fact, that’s actually how they are in the real world.
KL (20:14): Yeah, exactly.
SWB (20:16): And I think that’s exactly right, that that is one of the things that breaks the status quo. I think that is one of the things that creates change. I mean it’s not like the whole system is broken overnight, sadly.
KL (20:25): I know.
SWB (20:26): But I do think it’s like it’s reorienting your business in a way that serves those values.
KL (20:31): Yeah. Totally. And I also just, I really loved when Jennifer described the masculine and feminine ideals of how we work. And I just love thinking about how to incorporate more of those feminine concepts of respect and flow. I think that in itself has enabled me to really let go more. I mean, I came back from my sabbatical and I thought, you know, okay, I’m going to dive back in, because everyone’s going to need help. But that didn’t happen. You know, everyone on the team was sort of like, “we got it.” And though my natural response would normally be to say, like, are you sure? You know? Instead I was like, great, cool. You know, holler. Holler if you need me to be support or clear a path and just like, I want to help.
SWB (21:12): Yeah. I really like that because I think that is what really breaks you out of the burnout cycle. Right? It’s not just taking a break, but it’s that resetting of norms. It’s like, if you just take the break but then go back to exactly what you were doing, you haven’t really changed the system.
KL (21:26): Right, right.
SWB (21:27): And reminds me of one of my other very favorite moments from last year, which is when we talked to Heather Havrilesky, who is one of my favorite authors, and she writes the Ask Polly column—it’s an advice column that’s sort of like existential. Oh, I love it. And it was in our first episode as Strong Feelings. So in January of last year. Here’s Heather.
Heather Havrilesky (21:44): I think that a very common trap that a lot of us fall into these days is, we really stick with this notion of ourselves as little machines that need to be productive all the time. And the more productive we are, the better we are. And there are just a lot of different aspects of our culture that feed into that message. But that’s not how it feels to be happy, being maximally productive. It’s not going to make me happy at all. Also, the thing about to-do lists is, where is it all leading? You know, it’s just leading to enjoyment theoretically, right? I mean, are you going to be happier once you’re 15 times more successful than you are right now? You might be a lot less happy if you never learned to enjoy your day along the way. The point of success is supposed to be to enjoy your life. So are you going to then land at some successful point and start enjoying your life then? And when is that gonna happen? Are you going to be 50, 55, nearing retirement?
SWB (22:43): I think this was the first of many messages we got last year about slowing down.
KL (22:48): Yeah.
SWB (22:48): Yeah, ones that we’re maybe just finally actually hearing.
KL (22:51): Yeah. Oh my God. Someone we really wanted to have on the show last year is Trisha Hersey from the Nap Ministry. And she has this quote, “patience and slowing down are important for your rest practice.” I think that’s so connected and so powerful to practice patience and slowing down. Like I know that if I can practice patience for someone or a situation, I wind up being a lot more patient with myself, too. I was actually feeling really impatient with myself in December, because I don’t love running in the cold. I mean who does? But it’s really hard for me to get up and when it’s dark in the morning and I hate wearing all these layers and I just felt like I was going through the motions and it felt just kind of agonizing. And I thought, let me slow down, let me take a break from running. So I decided to take two months off and I’m focusing only on yoga and just like taking walks when it’s not too freezing, and just doing slow exercise and it feels really good and really right.
SWB (23:46): I mean, it’s one thing to be like, “oh, have perseverance and push through the hard stuff.” And sometimes that makes total sense. But I think that there’s also a moment where you’re like, “why am I punishing myself? Like, what’s this for?” If I say it’s for my health, but I’m making myself miserable, is it really? And it reminds me of the fact that like, that’s a thing we can do—take breaks from stuff that don’t feel right. We can do things that feel good. And I think that’s come up a few times on the show. This idea that we don’t have to be suffering all the time to be “good.”
KL (24:20): Yeah. I’m so glad we were hearing that from so many people. It actually reminds me of something that adrienne maree brown said so beautifully.
SWB (24:27): Everything she says is so beautiful.
KL (24:28): I know.
adrienne maree brown (24:30): People feel really guilty for the pleasures that they indulge in. Especially—my focus is those of us who are in social justice work and movement work—that because the crises are so big, there’s a real desire to constantly be responding to these crises, and constantly be, you know, it’s like there’s never a moment when we can’t justifiably be working, right, because there’s so much to work on, and there’s still so few people who spend the majority of their lives doing that work. So it’s totally understandable that we’re like, “no, I just gotta be tireless.” But what ends up happening is, we suffer because we don’t have joy and connection to each other and connection to our bodies and connection to family and pleasure in our lives. And that suffering builds up into exhaustion. That exhaustion leads to a depletion of hope, a depletion of vision, a depletion of innovation under pressure.
SWB (25:23): I listened back to all these episodes where people were like, “slow down, rest, stop overworking.” And man, that is so clear now. We were obviously craving this message, but it’s so hard to listen to when you’re still so focused on all this stuff that you could or should be doing.
KL (25:37): Thinking about all the “shoulds” is so exhausting. Like I mean so many times that in and of itself puts me in this place of thinking I’m not as good as someone else because I should be doing what they’re doing to succeed or to achieve something. Especially when maybe what success means for me is totally different from everyone else’s. I think about that in relation to me being a little quiet and introverted—that I’m not good at certain things, like I could or should be more outgoing with my work, or try a lot harder to overcome my fear of public speaking. And it keeps me in this thought cycle of like, “I’m too shy or quiet. No one will ever see me as ambitious or successful.” And then I spiral into, “well, I might as well not even try.” But you know, our conversation with Liana Finck, the New Yorker illustrator, last fall really helped me see that that’s not actually true. I’m successful in a lot of things and it is often exactly because of how I operate. Here’s what she said.
Liana Finck (26:33): I think I was shy because I knew I was strange in a way that I couldn’t quite define, and I was very afraid of being found out. And the sadness I think arose from the shyness. I really don’t think I’m someone who is hopelessly sad all the time. I think I get sad for a reason, and I think I’ve been said most in my life because I was hiding myself and I was afraid of showing myself, and I felt trapped and helpless and out of control. And I think that has a lot to do with something that society didn’t find me exactly what they ordered.
KL (27:06): And I just love that. It makes me want to celebrate the things that make me different and not ignore them or devalue them. Like my journey might look very different or more incremental than other people’s journeys. But that’s okay.
SWB (27:17): Well on that note, I would like to propose a Fuck Yeah.
KL (27:22): Yes.
SWB (27:23): I want to say fuck yeah to this journey that we’ve been on and just how much I’ve learned about myself and about you and us and about the world in the process. I just feel like it has changed me in some pretty radical ways. And I’m so excited to be your friend and be by your side as you keep on embracing more and more of who you really are and what you really need.
KL (27:43): Yeah, me too. Well, I am going to echo a huge fuck yeah to that.
SWB (27:47): Well that’s it for now from us. Strong Feelings is recorded in Philadelphia and produced by Steph Colbourn from editaudio. Thanks so much, Steph, for being there with us. Our theme music is deprogrammed by Blowdryer. Check them out at blowdryer.bandcamp.com. If you’re based here in Philly, definitely come check out Collective Strength, our event series. Go to collective strength.co for details. And you can definitely keep Strong Feelings in your feed, because you never know what might pop up. In the meantime, we’ll still be sending a monthly newsletter. It’s a no-BS, feminist take on work, leadership, and life. Sign up at strongfeelings.co. Thank you so much to everyone who supported the show over the past two years. We are so thankful that you’ve come along for this ride.
KL (28:29): Thanks y’all. [Music fades in and plays for 12 seconds]